Trigger warning: Drugs

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Whoops. I can't post a single coherent message any more without typos.

Actually a tigger warning sounds like an awesome thing and would guarantee a I click a thread.

It kind of does, doesn't it? I think it's important that we all be mindful of using tigger warnings where appropriate.

[AFK]

Tigger looks like he could be a spice addict.

[AFK]

Pooh is obviously into the natural stuff. 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Most of the damage associated with use have been from from impurities rather than the drugs themselves.

1.  Link?

2.  Does it matter?  Turns people into cannibal zombies.  CANNIBAL ZOMBIES.  Doesn't matter HOW it happens.

I made some comment about the cannibal zombie thing to a guy I met here in the UK that was saying how cool 'research chemicals' were. After he pointed out that no only was the initial comments about "bath salts being the new LSD" dead wrong, but the medical examiner found the guy was not at all, on "bath salts".

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/06/27/medical-examiner-causeway-cannibal-not-high-on-bath-salts/


One of the deaths related to bath salts that's been used a lot (including in the Discovery channel documentary) was about a woman in NOLA that injected the shit into her arm. She ended up losing the arm and later dying. However, the loss of the arm was due to flesh eating bacteria, not whatever chemicals were in the crap she bought. Was the flesh eating bacteria mixed in with the bath salts (contaminant) or was the needle she used contaminated? Apparently nobody bothered to actually determine that answer and instead they call it a "bath salt" death. No matter where the contamination happened, it wasn't a result of the chemical itself.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/woman-loses-arm-flesh-eating-bacteria-bath-salts-1C6436058

There have been people who have had bad reactions/overdosed from what I've read. That makes sense, since its a mess of chemicals we don't know much about. Overdose and addiction are legit concerns. I was surprised though, how much my perception of bath salts had been colored by the less than objective reports. This is especially true since "bath salts" is basically just saying "some chemicals" rather than anything informative. Some of the overdoses blamed on bath salts include statements like: "used ecstasy, methadone [bath salts], mushrooms, LSD and alcohol" or "Self-inflicted gunshot wound" (but there were bath salts in the house, so obviously that was the real cause). I'm not trying to minimize the dangers of using chemicals that no one knows much about, but I have recently had to reevaluate the information I thought I knew about "bath salts".

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Interesting: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23291209

If the findings from this study are accurate, legalization should have a heavy impact on sales of synthetic cannabinoids.

You used the above study to support your opinion that legalization would have a heavy impact on the use of synthetics.  But in this study 99% of the respondents who indicated using the synthetic cannabinoids also reported using natural.  So it clearly wasn't being used as an alternative.

That could be, I don't know about those people specifically. However, the people I know who have tried/used synthetic marijuana, did it because they couldn't get the real stuff at the time. Now, that's my limited experience, but all of them would have reported to have used both. Not because they wanted to experiment, rather because they couldn't get access to actual pot.

There are definitely some people that will always be looking for something that will fuck them up even more than whatever they have access to. Those people will continue to use 'research chemicals', chew moth balls, huff paint and do other stupid things, even if we make everything legal (or make it all illegal).

[Mesozoic Mister Nigel]

Most of the damage associated with use have been from from impurities rather than the drugs themselves.

1.  Link?

2.  Does it matter?  Turns people into cannibal zombies.  CANNIBAL ZOMBIES.  Doesn't matter HOW it happens.

I made some comment about the cannibal zombie thing to a guy I met here in the UK that was saying how cool 'research chemicals' were. After he pointed out that no only was the initial comments about "bath salts being the new LSD" dead wrong, but the medical examiner found the guy was not at all, on "bath salts".

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/06/27/medical-examiner-causeway-cannibal-not-high-on-bath-salts/


One of the deaths related to bath salts that's been used a lot (including in the Discovery channel documentary) was about a woman in NOLA that injected the shit into her arm. She ended up losing the arm and later dying. However, the loss of the arm was due to flesh eating bacteria, not whatever chemicals were in the crap she bought. Was the flesh eating bacteria mixed in with the bath salts (contaminant) or was the needle she used contaminated? Apparently nobody bothered to actually determine that answer and instead they call it a "bath salt" death. No matter where the contamination happened, it wasn't a result of the chemical itself.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/woman-loses-arm-flesh-eating-bacteria-bath-salts-1C6436058

There have been people who have had bad reactions/overdosed from what I've read. That makes sense, since its a mess of chemicals we don't know much about. Overdose and addiction are legit concerns. I was surprised though, how much my perception of bath salts had been colored by the less than objective reports. This is especially true since "bath salts" is basically just saying "some chemicals" rather than anything informative. Some of the overdoses blamed on bath salts include statements like: "used ecstasy, methadone [bath salts], mushrooms, LSD and alcohol" or "Self-inflicted gunshot wound" (but there were bath salts in the house, so obviously that was the real cause). I'm not trying to minimize the dangers of using chemicals that no one knows much about, but I have recently had to reevaluate the information I thought I knew about "bath salts".

You said "damage", not "deaths". How are you defining "damage"?

[AFK]

Here are the side effects of "bath salts".   http://www.maine.gov/dhhs/samhs/osa/irc/pubs/DrugFactSheets/BathsaltsFactSheetOct2011.pdf


Short term:


Increased heart rate
agitation
diminished requirement for sleep
lack of appetite
increased alertness and awareness
anxiety
fits and delusions
nosebleeds


Long term and severe:


hallucinations
muscle spasms and damage
aggression
severe paranoia
panic attacks
highky elevated body temperature
increased blood pressure and circulation problems
risk of renal failure

[AFK]

It's nasty stuff.  There were a couple or articles printed at the height of the problem here in Maine where they quoted, let us say, veteran drug abusers who basically said, "yeah, even I wouldn't touch that shit". 

[Bebek Sincap Ratatosk]

Most of the damage associated with use have been from from impurities rather than the drugs themselves.

1.  Link?

2.  Does it matter?  Turns people into cannibal zombies.  CANNIBAL ZOMBIES.  Doesn't matter HOW it happens.

I made some comment about the cannibal zombie thing to a guy I met here in the UK that was saying how cool 'research chemicals' were. After he pointed out that no only was the initial comments about "bath salts being the new LSD" dead wrong, but the medical examiner found the guy was not at all, on "bath salts".

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/06/27/medical-examiner-causeway-cannibal-not-high-on-bath-salts/


One of the deaths related to bath salts that's been used a lot (including in the Discovery channel documentary) was about a woman in NOLA that injected the shit into her arm. She ended up losing the arm and later dying. However, the loss of the arm was due to flesh eating bacteria, not whatever chemicals were in the crap she bought. Was the flesh eating bacteria mixed in with the bath salts (contaminant) or was the needle she used contaminated? Apparently nobody bothered to actually determine that answer and instead they call it a "bath salt" death. No matter where the contamination happened, it wasn't a result of the chemical itself.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/woman-loses-arm-flesh-eating-bacteria-bath-salts-1C6436058

There have been people who have had bad reactions/overdosed from what I've read. That makes sense, since its a mess of chemicals we don't know much about. Overdose and addiction are legit concerns. I was surprised though, how much my perception of bath salts had been colored by the less than objective reports. This is especially true since "bath salts" is basically just saying "some chemicals" rather than anything informative. Some of the overdoses blamed on bath salts include statements like: "used ecstasy, methadone [bath salts], mushrooms, LSD and alcohol" or "Self-inflicted gunshot wound" (but there were bath salts in the house, so obviously that was the real cause). I'm not trying to minimize the dangers of using chemicals that no one knows much about, but I have recently had to reevaluate the information I thought I knew about "bath salts".

You said "damage", not "deaths". How are you defining "damage"?

It was not the best choice of words. I had found a discussion where some of the extreme side effects appeared to have been from 'other' chemicals in the various mixes, but I can't find it now. It basically stated that the family of drugs which these all stem from have been synthesized since the early 1900's and side effects like headaches, nausea etc were known to be associated with it, but that some of the other ones which are now being associated with bath salt use (even first time use) like liver/kidney failure don't appear to be from the active drugs like mephedrone (which is the current popular drug in UK bath salts). It also pointed out that these instances appear often in a small somewhat concentrated area which they think indicates problems or adulterants with a specific mix. Additionally, since its not being studied in any scientific sense, people will report side effects of "mephedrone" or MDPV (another popular bath salt drug) when they really are having side effects of mephedrone or MDPV plus whatever else that vendor is mixing in their specific recipe. This seems pretty evident when you look at reviews of the various commercial products. "This was more speedy than x","this one had a bad hangover", "this one had no hangover", "this one caused some nose blockage", "this one didn't cause nose blockage" etc. etc. etc. When the desired effects and the easily identifiable side effects are so diverse, its a complete unknown what the unintended side effects of any given mix would be and if they're due to MDPV/mephedrone or some other random shit that someone intentionally or unintentionally mixed in.

All in all, its obviously a bad idea to snort chemicals that have little or no studies on the effects. However, there seems to be a mix of real concerns, bad information, incorrect assumptions and loads of unknowns in the 'bath salts'/research chemical area.

It's nasty stuff.  There were a couple or articles printed at the height of the problem here in Maine where they quoted, let us say, veteran drug abusers who basically said, "yeah, even I wouldn't touch that shit". 

Indeed, I'm not a noob when it comes to drugs, I've sampled most of the stuff that isn't completely insane (like crack, heroin, etc). But, some powder with unknown contents? Ick.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Okay, I was unaware that the police had simply assumed he was on bath salts.

Still, I want to return to my original question:  If problems are related to "impurities", and you can't have any indication if said impurities are present or not, then what practical difference does it make? 

I need to dig into this a bit more.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Also, I'm going to rage out a bit here on the "research chemicals", which sounds like Dalek "testing" various synthetic drugs.

Getting high is not "research".  It is not "testing", unless it is done under laboratory conditions.  It is getting FUCKED UP.

Please keep the hippie shit out of my SCIENCE.  Thanks, everyone.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Ah, here we go...Our old pals at the CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6019a6.htm

On February 1, 2011, in response to multiple news reports, the Michigan Department of Community Health (MDCH) contacted the Children's Hospital of Michigan Poison Control Center (PCC) regarding any reports of illness in the state caused by the use of recreational designer drugs sold as "bath salts." Unlike traditional cosmetic bath salts, which are packaged and sold for adding to bath water for soaking and cleaning, the drugs sold as "bath salts" have no legitimate use for bathing and are intended for substance abuse. These products can contain stimulant compounds such as 3,4-methylenedioxypyrovalerone (MDPV) or 4-methylmethcathinone (mephedrone). The PCC told MDCH that, earlier in the day, the PCC had learned that numerous persons had visited the local emergency department (ED) in Marquette County with cardiovascular and neurologic signs of acute intoxication. This report summarizes the subsequent investigation, which identified 35 persons who had ingested, inhaled, or injected "bath salts" and visited a Michigan ED during November 13, 2010--March 31, 2011. Among the 35 patients, the most common signs and symptoms of toxicity were agitation (23 patients [66%]), tachycardia (22 [63%]), and delusions/hallucinations (14 [40%]). Seventeen patients were hospitalized, and one was dead upon arrival at the ED. The coordinated efforts of public health agencies, health-care providers, poison control centers, and law enforcement agencies enabled rapid identification of this emerging health problem. Mitigation of the problem required the execution of an emergency public health order to remove the toxic "bath salts" from the marketplace. Lessons from the Michigan experience could have relevance to other areas of the United States experiencing similar problems.

From November 2010 to January 2011, the Marquette County ED treated seven patients who arrived at the ED with hypertension, tachycardia, tremors, motor automatisms, mydriasis, delusions, and paranoia. Some patients were violent, placing increased demand on ED staff members. Responding to the cluster also placed additional demands on local law enforcement and foster care, because many patients had young children who needed care while their parents were incapacitated. The patients reported using "bath salts" purchased at a local store for about $20 a package and labeled "not intended for human consumption." By February 3, a total of 13 cases in Marquette County and one death had been reported to the PCC. Efforts by the local ED, law enforcement, and prosecuting attorney's office led to the execution of an emergency public health order on February 4 by the Marquette County Health Department. The proprietor of the store was ordered to immediately remove from sale and turn over to government authorities any and all products known as White Rush, Cloud Nine, Ivory Wave, Ocean Snow, Charge Plus, White Lightning, Scarface, Hurricane Charlie, Red Dove, White Dove, and Sextasy. The Michigan Department of State Police laboratory tested the White Rush seized from the store and detected the presence of MDPV.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Same link:

Toxicology results for the person who died revealed a high level of MDPV, along with marijuana and prescription drugs. Autopsy results revealed MDPV toxicity to be the primary factor contributing to death. The manner of death was ruled accidental, consistent with an attempt to get high.

MDPV, aka methylenedioxypyrovalerone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylenedioxypyrovalerone

In April 2011, two weeks after they went missing, two men in northwestern Pennsylvania were found dead in a remote location on government land. The official cause of death of both men was hypothermia, but toxicology reports later confirmed that both Troy Johnson, 29, and Terry Sumrow, 28, had ingested MDPV shortly before their deaths. "It wasn't anything to kill them, but enough to get them messed up," the county coroner said. MDPV containers were found in their vehicle along with spoons, hypodermic syringes and marijuana paraphernalia. In April 2011, an Alton, Illinois, woman apparently died from an MDPV overdose.[41] In May 2011, The CDC reported a hospital emergency department (ED) visit after the use of "bath salts" in Michigan. One person was reported dead on arrival at the ED. Associates of the dead person reported that he had used bath salts. His toxicology results revealed high levels of MDPV in addition to marijuana and prescription drugs. The primary factor contributing to death was cited as MDPV toxicity after autopsy was performed.[42] An incident of hemiplegia has been reported

Unlike weed, methylenedioxypyrovalerone is by itself toxic, and death by overdose is possible.  In addition, it by itself can cause all manner of really fucking bizarre behavior and/or permanent physical and psychological damage.

No "impurities" are needed.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

The other usual  substituted cathinone used is Mephedrone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephedrone

A survey conducted by the National Addiction Centre, UK, found 67% of mephedrone users experienced sweating, 51% suffered from headaches, 43% from heart palpitations, 27% from nausea and 15% from cold or blue fingers,[80] indicative of vasoconstriction occurring.[38] Doctors at Guy's Hospital, London reported, of 15 patients they treated after taking mephedrone in 2009, 53% were agitated, 40% had increased heart rates, 20% had systolic hypertension and 20% had seizures; three required treatment with benzodiazepines, predominantly to control their agitation.

Also toxic, needing no "impurities".

[AFK]

They ARE impurities, biologically speaking.